Podcast Episode #112: Listener Q&A – Laser Hair Removal, Monthly Sugar Cravings & Brain Fog

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Liz Wolfe: Hey everyone! Welcome to episode 112 of the Balanced Bites podcast. We have a new sponsor starting this week; Paleo Treats. We love Paleo Treats, and the whole gang behind the company, Nick and Lee. They are amazing folks who totally walk the walk. They are adventurers in every sense of the word, and I highly recommend, if you ever get the chance to sit down and have dinner with them, and just

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Talk to them, because they have some amazing stories.

Diane Sanfilippo: Totally.

Liz Wolfe: So, they are going to offer our listeners, I think 15% off, so do visit the blog post for this podcast. Do not miss their goodies! My favorite is the Mustang bar.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, they have a new bar coming out, too. Ahh, shoot.

Liz Wolfe: Oh I tried it! The Bandito.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh yeah, that’s it! Um, I haven’t been home. I think it’s probably at the house.

Liz Wolfe: It’s good.

Diane Sanfilippo: So, yeah. We’ll get a little bit more information from, I think Nick. I don’t know if Nick and Lee will both come on, but we will chat with them and learn a little bit more about their company and their products, and let all you guys know about what they are doing.

Liz Wolfe: We should just do a whole podcast with them, and just hear…

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} And us not talk at all.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Just, ask them one question, like, “tell us the story of your life.”

Liz Wolfe: I mean, their stories are, like, number one they are true, but its like they tell them as I would tell them in, like, I was just telling somebody about how I went to the store that day. Like, they are that cool.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Liz Wolfe: That cool. Anyway, we have two other amazing sponsors; Pete’s Paleo, bringing fine dining to your cave. Pete’s Paleo specializes in premade meals created from fresh, seasonal ingredients, local to their headquarters, and they ship that goodness all across the country. Their co-venture, Real Skin Products, uses high quality ingredients, including pastured beef tallow, which is amazing for the skin. They use that in their awesome skin balm. They are at http://petespaleo.com/, visit the blog post for this podcast for a great offer, and, of course, there is Chameleon Cold-Brew, our favorite go-to concentrated coffee that is amazing either hot or cold. They are out of Austin, Texas, but you can find CCB all over the country, or you can order at http://www.chameleoncoldbrew.com/. Again, visit the blog post…

Diane Sanfilippo: I think we have a new, yeah, I think we’re going to have a new offer from them.

Liz Wolfe: Sweet.

Diane Sanfilippo: Actually, I think we have a new offer from Pete’s Paleo, as well. So, I don’t remember either of those off the top of my head, but we will have both of them in the ads on the blog post.

Liz Wolfe: Are you drinking your CCB today?

Diane Sanfilippo: I did this morning.

Liz Wolfe: We won’t say what time it is. But I’m drinking mine right now.

Diane Sanfilippo: {Laughs} Well, it’s a different time where you are. You are in the past…no, you are in…yes. I am in the future.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. I’m in the past, and I’m even more screwed up from Daylight Savings, or the end of Daylight Savings or whatever the heck it was.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s like, I don’t know why it’s called Daylight Savings, it should be called ruining daylight for everyone.

Liz Wolfe: Ruining…I got so…I got p.o.'d yesterday, because it was 4 o'clock, and I was like, “oh man {yawns} it’s about bedtime.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: It was like 4.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Freaking goats are mad everyday because they are in the barn like 12 hours a day. They have to go in at 4.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s brutal. It’s the worst.

Liz Wolfe: It is the worst. So happy anniversary to you and your sweetheart, you two little weirdos!

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing} We’re pretty nerdy over here. Thank you. I can’t believe it’s been a year. What’s funny is, I don’t think I brought it up on the podcast until like maybe 2 or 3 months ago, so it’s almost like…

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Everyone else is thinking “A whole year?” Yeah. We actually met when I did a book signing for Practical Paleo here in Pittsburg at the Penguin Bookshop, so just this past weekend it was legitimately our anniversary, but it was pretty much like reliving when we met! It was really interesting. It was fun.

Liz Wolfe: What did he say to you? {sing-song} What did the Scott say? {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Well, I don’t even know what that is, but you mean when we met?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. {deep voice} “Hey there pretty lady.”

Diane Sanfilippo: “Hey there.” No. It was totally a set up. Bill and Haley of the Food Lover’s set us up, and were all at like this big group dinner with a bunch of other fun paleo folks from the Pittsburg area last year, and {laughs} not so much what did he say to me, but what did I say to Haley. I’m like, “I’m not sitting next to him. That’s too much pressure.”

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: So, they were making fun of me Friday when we all went to dinner again. Like, “Yeah, last year you didn’t even want to sit next to him.” I’m like, well, I’m like awkward. I’m not cool and funny. I’m just awkward and nerdy.

Liz Wolfe: Plus you have cooties.

Diane Sanfilippo: Plus I have cooties, so, you know, that makes things tough. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughing} Cooties really limits my proximity to other people.

Diane Sanfilippo: Cooties is actually the code word for like, fleas and ticks, I think.

Liz Wolfe: Is it?

Diane Sanfilippo: No, I’m kidding.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m just trying to push the cooties off to you….

Liz Wolfe: I’ve been ….no, well that’s funny though, we’ve been looking for a name for our homestead, and so maybe we should just call it Cootie Farm or Cooterville or something.

Diane Sanfilippo: That does not sound right!

Liz Wolfe: No.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: I think I’m confusing cooties with something else.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think you’re driving the property value of this podcast…to like, zero.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m kidding. Anyway, how about I give you some other updates from my neck of the woods?

Liz Wolfe: Yes.

1. Event Updates for 21-Day Sugar Detox book [6:22]

Diane Sanfilippo: Let’s see, so I was in Rochester; well, I was in Pittsburg and Rochester this past weekend, which, those were awesome events. Rochester, man, you and I talked there recently, and I saw Julie was one of the coaches at the gym where we did the seminar, and she was totally representing. I think she basically was pregnant and has since had a baby in the year that we were there. Like, I don’t think she was even pregnant when went there to teach, so she also now has this baby. It was really awesome to see her, and just to see everyone who came out. I mean, I think we had over 60 people at the signing. So it was a really nice strong showing, and as always, a good time. But, I will be, where am I going next? So I think I’ve got…stay tuned for information on November 22nd for an event in New Jersey. I’m not positive on that one yet, but I think I might be at a Barnes and Noble in Clifton, New Jersey. They are having like a really big just book promo event thing going on, kind of chain-wide, so November 22nd is that whole thing. Let’s see, I think December 12th, also in New Jersey in Montclair, I think I will be speaking at the library, the Montclair Library, so that’s open to anyone. And then, I think nothing else that is super firm yet until we get into January. You and I are going to be teaching January 25th in Philly; we have to just kind of nail down all the details on that, and Scott and I will be teaching January 4th in Fairfield, New Jersey, so that will be really fun.

Liz Wolfe: Is that going to be, wait a second, where’s Fairfield? Is that north?

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s where I live, basically.

Liz Wolfe: Oh, okay.

Diane Sanfilippo: A neighboring town. That’s where Brazen is. So, host at Brazen Athletics.

Liz Wolfe: Got it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Which, you are welcome to join us if something changes and your farm somehow becomes {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Mobile.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mobile, or like maybe…

Liz Wolfe: You know how much I love travel!

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t even want to say, you know, all the chickens like freeze, and something terrible happens.

Liz Wolfe: Well you never know.

Diane Sanfilippo: And then you have to move back to where we can hang out again.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

2. Liz news [8:27]

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m just kidding. Anyway. What’s the report from the farm? What are you calling that? Somebody commented that’s like their favorite part of the show, and while I don’t understand it I’m glad for you, too. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: What do you call it?

Liz Wolfe: What do I call what?

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t know, there’s like… you gave some name to this segment of the show where you give us the update from the farm.

Liz Wolfe: I think it’s just the part…I think it’s just the rant. I think it was the rant that we were getting good feedback on.

Diane Sanfilippo: No, there’s some name. But anyway, tell us…

Liz Wolfe: Oh yeah. I can’t remember. Um, well. So, you know what, maybe I’ll give a little bit of news on what I’m working on professionally, because I feel like people think I just sit here and watch, you know, Kardashian shows and watch my chickens cross the road.

Diane Sanfilippo: You do, what?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, right?

Diane Sanfilippo: You don’t do anything.

Liz Wolfe: {accented} I don’t do nothing. So, I’m working on a big update to the Skintervention Guide, which, anybody who owns the guide will automatically get that, and they will be notified when that comes out so no big worries. No big whoop. The big bonus to having an eBook is that you can continu….continually or continuously? Continually? I don’t know. You can update it, and deliver that content to people that bought the book. So, that should be done by the New Year, which will be here before we know it. I’m doing a big 50,000 Facebook likes giveaway from my Cave Girl Eats page, which I’m really excited about, because I’m going to give away all of the unnecessary kitchen gadgets that I use …

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Instead of actually using a knife to chop things, and you know, all that.

Diane Sanfilippo: Nice.

Liz Wolfe: So, it’s going to be an awesome giveaway. Working on some big, big book news that I think will come out next week. You already know, of course, what’s going on behind the scenes, but that is pretty big.

Diane Sanfilippo: Good, because if you were going to tell me there was news I don’t know, I was going to start to get really…

Liz Wolfe: {snorts}

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m just kidding {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Not okay.

Diane Sanfilippo: Not okay.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. Other than that, working on just keeping my sanity because we are taking care of a friend’s cat for a few months while he is deployed.

Diane Sanfilippo: People thought it was Paleo Kitty.

Liz Wolfe: Looks much like Paleo Kitty, although he has some…

Diane Sanfilippo: Paleo Kitty does not have an underbite!

Liz Wolfe: Yeah! This cat has some major dental issues, which we are working on {laughs} rectifying. Insert Pottenger’s cat joke here. And, he’s actually a pretty cool cat. Surprisingly cool. But we’re also taking care of my sister’s little sassy puppy while she’s out of the country, so. Basically if you come over for dinner, you will pretty much be eating animal hair, because the vacuum is broken.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: From sucking up too many ladybugs, which is another thing that is happening. We have a ladybug infestation.

Diane Sanfilippo: Um, I asked Scott to remove a ladybug from the house, we were staying at his family’s place in Rochester, and, well, it’s not actually Rochester, it’s like 40 miles outside of Rochester and very rural, and I was like, “can you take that bug off the ceiling and get rid of it?” And he’s like “it’s just a ladybug.” I’m like, “does that make it less of a bug? It’s still a bug, get it out of here!” {laughs} I’m really not a city slicker, I just don’t like bugs.

Liz Wolfe: I was going to say, last week you said you weren’t a city slicker.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m saying it again; I’m not.

Liz Wolfe: Liar.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m not.

Liz Wolfe: Li-ar! I’m not a witch, I’m your wife!

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} So what are the ladybugs doing?

Liz Wolfe: Uh, I think they kind of hide under siding and whatnot

Diane Sanfilippo: Ugh.

Liz Wolfe: And when there’s kind of a warm spell, they will come out.

Diane Sanfilippo: Creepy. I don’t like any kind of hard shelled bugs like that, because, like, if anybody knows about stinkbugs, which are rampant in the Pittsburg area, I’ve heard that they are spreading. I saw somebody post a picture of a stinkbug somewhere else, and they are like, “Oh no, they are spreading.” They look giant bedbugs, and while stinkbugs are not parasitic or dangerous, I just…I can’t. I can’t get on board with being okay with bugs in the house.

Liz Wolfe: Well, what I’m learning…

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m so not a cavewoman.

Liz Wolfe: Well, that’s okay. Well, you know, if you’re forced to deal with it, you’re going to deal with it. But, that’s another thing that I’m spending a lot of time researching as beneficials, trying to balance the ecosystem here.

Diane Sanfilippo: Ugh.

Liz Wolfe: Which has been so dullened by unnatural inputs, and whatnot.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: So that’s kind of my big project.

Diane Sanfilippo: Like the probiotic bug colony for your farm?

Liz Wolfe: The beneficial nematodes, things like that.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oye.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, it will be fun. I’m like whole-hogging to this homesteading thing.

Diane Sanfilippo: Are you getting hogs?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, I mean, speaking of which…No we’re not. That will probably be the last thing. But eventually, hopefully, I’ll be able to do a little bit of real writing about the whole experience.

Diane Sanfilippo: Okay. Well, I guess keep us posted. The listeners want to know.

Liz Wolfe: I don’t think that’s true, but since they’re listening, they’re going to get a nice dose of whatever the heck I want to talk about.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s right.

Liz Wolfe: That’s right.

Diane Sanfilippo: Alright.

Liz Wolfe: Okay, so last …

Diane Sanfilippo: Can I answer some questions?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, let’s do it. Last week’s episode, we got a lot of feedback on the body image episode, and we’ll definitely be continuing that discussion, but this week, we’ll do some traditional Q&A. A grab bag. This will be fun.

Diane Sanfilippo: If you say so.

3. What do you think about laser hair removal? [14:01]

Liz Wolfe: If I say so. So, this first question is for me. This is from Christina. “Hey ladies! What do you think about laser hair removal? I know Liz has mentioned having it done. Do you think there are any consequences to killing hair follicles? I would really like it, but the idea of killing part of my body seems unhealthy. Very much looking forward to your response.” And, I actually agree with Christina. I think…I don’t know a whole lot about, you know, the potential hippy-dippy, you know, I don’t know what laser hair removal did to my chi, or whatever, but I’m sure there are consequences to that type of treatment. I really don’t know what they are, but, I had this done… we talked about this in a previous, like, ask us anything episode. We had an episode where basically people just asked us personal questions, and it was kind of fun in a really weird way. But, folks asked us {laughs} if either of us had had any work done, which, other than Photoshop, I’ve had laser hair removal underneath my chin, because when I was suffering from really severe androgen driven acne, I actually had some hair follicles that basically androgenized. They basically turned into, you know, witch hair, so I kind of got sick of dealing with that and decided to go ahead and get laser hair removal.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that’s an important thing to just mention that, I actually know that there are a lot of women out there who have, and this isn’t just like one random rogue hair that maybe grows, you know…

Liz Wolfe: It was like a wizard beard. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I mean, I think there are a bunch of women who have, you know, again, not even talking about dark-haired Italian women who just happen to have slightly darker hair. If you have hair that is on your face or somewhere that you don’t think should be as dark or as coarse as it is, it could be the sign that you’ve got some hormonal imbalances going on

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: So that’s really, you know, {laughs} I think it’s worth looking into trying to handle that hormonal imbalance and working with someone to kind of get that stuff back in check, and, again, I also don’t really know much about what killing those follicles does, but I do think that if you just get rid of the problem without actually dealing with what is causing it, then it’s probably not the best route to figuring out how to make yourself healthier so that maybe doesn’t happen. I don’t really know if this is really just about Italian darker hair, or {laughs} a witch’s beard.

Liz Wolfe: A wizard beard. Witches? Witch hair? I think that’s a really good point. And I did spend a lot of time, it is really important that I say this, dealing with the underlying hormonal issues. And a lot of that is what inspired the Skintervention Guide and all of that stuff. So, once that was dealt with and I wasn’t dealing with the acne anymore and, you know, some other problems had been corrected, those hair follicles, they’re not going to go back to the way they were. From all that I know, once a hair follicle makes that shift, it’s not going to go back. So, that was why I went ahead and I did the laser hair removal underneath my chin. It seems to have worked. But I wouldn’t do it in my armpits especially because, you know, we are dealing with a pretty complex network of lymph, you know. Again, I don’t really know what exactly would happen killing a hair follicle and whatnot, but I do think it is probably not something I would tell people to go do for their armpits or any other part of their body for cosmetic reasons. But this, my reasoning was it’s a very small part of my body, and I’m just going to go for it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I mean, I bet there’s a little bit of difference, too, between something that’s close to the lymph system, like your armpits

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: Versus, like, your shin. You know? I don’t know. Maybe that’s a large area and maybe it’s not safe to do. I don’t really know much about that. Maybe we’re overreacting; I don’t really know.

Liz Wolfe: Who knows.

Diane Sanfilippo: But I do think there is something to be said for kind of those more sensitive areas that we know are kind of closer connected to delicate systems.

Liz Wolfe: And you know what? I’m not making a joke here. Honestly, if I developed like thyroid cancer in 10 years, I’m going to wonder.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: You know? But, I weighed the pros and cons and went for it. And I went to Ideal Image, if anybody from Ideal Image wants to reach out to me with an endorsement deal, I take checks.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Cash or checks.

Diane Sanfilippo: Liz. {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t even know what that is. Okay.

4. Help minimizing sugar cravings during and after monthly cycle [18:55]

Liz Wolfe: Okay. Alright, this next question is 21-Day Sugar Detox related from Cheryl. “Hi ladies! I really need some advice about an issue that I’ve been struggling with for years ever since I started to take my health into my own hands. This is even more a concern since I’ve been eating paleo. Every month when I start to feel symptoms of my upcoming cycle, my sugar cravings go through the roof. In the past year or so, I have mostly stuck with paleo treats at this time. No shortage of treat recipes out there. But lately, I’ve had a hard time shaking off the sugar cravings once my cycle is over. I’m really looking for a way to minimize this every month, and to stay on track with my goals. I have thyroid issues, adrenal fatigue, and some fibromyalgia that all affect my energy, which is always better when I’m very low sugar. I preordered my 21-Day Sugar Detox Book, and I look forward to that, but I’m not convinced I can make it through that week or so. I would really like to stop the madness. Thanks ladies. You are fantastic!”

Diane Sanfilippo: Well, that’s nice.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Um, okay. So, I’m hearing myself echo back…

Liz Wolfe: I can’t hear it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Skype, or who knows what. Okay. Just making sure. So, a couple of things here. One, you know, when she says “I’m not convinced I can make it through that week or so,” I have two thoughts immediately based on that. The 21-Day Sugar Detox is 21 days, so, you know, if you want to set yourself up for success, you could start it immediately following your cycle, and then what that will do is actually help to regulate your hormonal balance leading into your next cycle. A lot of women I’ve worked with find that once they get off of sugar, you know, any sort of premenstrual or menstrual cycle symptoms or effects that are happening during your cycle are definitely alleviated or, you know, much less severe if you’ve been able to stay away from sugar for longer leading up to it, if that makes sense. So, having that 21 days and then having your cycle begin, you may feel that it is a lot easier at that point. A couple of other things that come to mind, the supplements that I recommend in the book, whether it is minerals like chromium or some B vitamins, or the L-glutamine, which is probably the most effective, most helpful for dealing with sugar cravings. I know a lot of folks who kind of follow paleo and are maybe iffy about supplements versus those who are, like, quickly turning to supplements versus, you know, food changes. I know a lot of people have done the sugar detox and have said, well, I don’t want to do the supplements, I think I’m just fine without it, and then they’ve done it a second or third time, and they’ve said, okay, let me try the supplements, and they are realizing that they help a ton. And that L-glutamine especially helps with sugar cravings. It’s the kind of thing that I really like the powder form. You put a little bit of it in water, and within 20 or 30 minutes, you’re kind of looking around like, wait, I don’t actually feel like I’m craving sugar. This is really strange! But it works really nicely in your system to sort of feed your body that little bit of…it’s not like it’s giving you sugar, necessarily, but it’s kind of filling in those gaps where maybe your body thinks that you want sugar, and it’s allowing your body to kind of calm down without you actually eating something sweet, and kind of fulfilling that dopamine hit that we get from sweet foods. So those can be really helpful. Completely safe with all of your other issues, in terms of thyroid, adrenal, all of that. None of that would really be an issue. If you are going to take on the Sugar Detox and you have some adrenal issues, if you have fatigue issues, I don’t know what kind of exercise she is doing, but I would be careful not to go too low carb. I’ve said it on like a million podcasts now, I don’t want people to be a hero about things. It’s not a how low can you go, lower is better program. It’s really about getting the sweet stuff out, the sweet tastes, and changing your habits and your choices around, you know, how you build your plate and how you plan ahead every day. So, I do think that the Sugar Detox can help. I do have some folks who, you know, don’t make any treats at all while they are on the program because they find that their own self control isn’t really there, but I do find that a lot of women who maybe need a little bit more magnesium, maybe need a little bit more fat will do the sweetener-free almond butter cups, and that really just kind of quells that craving for them because its actually giving you what your body wants and needs, and not the sugar that you think you need because it will just affect your brain chemistry. So, that can be really helpful. And, let me see, there were a couple of other things that kind of came to mind. I don’t know for sure if this will have a direct effect on the cravings, but I know in general when it comes to symptoms of PMS and other types of period symptoms, evening primrose oil and borage oil, I know that in the past when I was dealing with really bad cramps, which I haven’t had anything too bad in quite a while now. I used to get where it would just be that first day would be really, really painful, and it’s a little bit sporadic, hard to tell, but definitely when I’m off of sugar I know that stuff doesn’t happen. But the evening primrose or borage oil can really help to kind of fulfill that chain of the omega-6 fatty acids, the essential omega-6 fatty acids, and so it’s not quite the same as when we’re eating avocado or other types of omega-6 fats. We’re getting a more closely converted to the end usable form of omega-6, so it’s almost like the fish oil type thing, or, you know, the cod liver oil. If your body is having a hard time converting those omega-6’s, those pro-inflammatory essential fatty acids, which we do need both the pro and antiinflammatory in our system at different times and different amounts, you know, that can be really helpful just to alleviate some other symptoms. So, you know, I don’t have a specific dose recommendation, but evening primrose or borage oil, you could try taking that kind of leading up, and see how that goes. I mean, I know; Liz, you’ve probably seen some stuff out there on those two oils. I think they’ve also perhaps had an effect on skin health?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah, they definitely can. If that’s your issue.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, so those are kind of my thoughts. And then, just the idea that, like, I’m not convinced I can make it through that week, you know. I think there’s a lot of just mental chatter and conversation to have with ourselves and around making that decision, like, hey I am going to do this. What I will do is reach out for support when I’m having a tough time, and there are plenty of people who are always doing the sugar detox, and so if you’re worried about it, there might even be a group of people on the Balanced Bites forums, there’s a special 21-Day Sugar Detox section, and maybe you can start a thread for women who have their period while they are on the Sugar Detox and how are they dealing with cravings, and just kind of getting support that way. So that could be really helpful, too.

Liz Wolfe: Whenever I hear…

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you have any thoughts?

Liz Wolfe: You covered it. But, I kind of want to pull something out of it real quick. Whenever I hear that someone is dealing with some fibromyalgia, I always am curious about their vitamin D levels. I think that that could be all around an important thing to figure out in the context of success in any vector. So, if you think you may be low in vitamin D, some of those symptoms could kind of mimic fibromyalgia, so you might want to think about that. I’m not a huge fan of vitamin D supplements, honestly. I think what we need is vitamin D sulfate, and that is pretty much only available from the sun, from egg yolks, and from raw milk. So. Something to think about.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. I think it is a really good idea for women who are worried about this to kind of start the Sugar Detox after their cycle, because I think its just going to improve how you feel throughout your cycle and just creating different habits leading up to it so that your not…

Liz Wolfe: So there’s not that lead in?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, you’re not like reaching for all the sweet stuff.

Liz Wolfe: A nice long runway. We’re airplanes, not helicopters.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oooh. That’s a good one.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: We…Scott and I actually just started the Sugar Detox. It starts the first Monday of every month; we have a group that starts, but since our anniversary was yesterday, and we already knew we wanted to have some Arsenal hard cider, that’s brewed locally here in the Pittsburg area, we were like, okay, we’re going to start it…people are like, the diet starts tomorrow, but realistically, we know we want to set ourselves up for success, so we’ll start on Tuesday, because we already have a plan for Monday, and it will make more sense to start on Tuesday, so we started today.

Liz Wolfe: Because you were going to have a cider for your anniversary.

Diane Sanfilippo: A cider. I can’t drink that much.

Liz Wolfe: Here I have a bottle of wine in the drawer underneath my bed.

Diane Sanfilippo: Just for Tuesday? {laughs}

5. Suddenly developing an intolerance to a food [28.06]

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Well, it was for Monday. There is none left now that it’s Tuesday. I’m just kidding! Kind of. Okay, so next question is from Jeff. “Dear Yoda and Obi-Wan.” Which one of us do you think is Yoda, and which do you think is Obi-Wan?

Diane Sanfilippo: Oooh. I don’t…I don’t even want to…

Liz Wolfe: Who wears more hoodies?

Diane Sanfilippo: I wear more hoodies for sure.

Liz Wolfe: Hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m always in a hoodie.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Like, literally, always in a hoodie. If you don’t think I’m in a hoodie, {laughing} it’s because you can’t see the hood that I have underneath tucked in. It’s like one of those dickies that’s like a hoodie.

Liz Wolfe: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: I don’t even know. I don’t make any sense.

Liz Wolfe: It zips into my collar.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: Alright. “Dear Yoda and Obi-Wan. My wife and I have been doing the wonderful paleo diet now for a few months. We feel great, and have lost a lot of the nasty weight that had been hanging on our bodies for years. My question is this: We have been purchasing and eating duck and chicken eggs from a local farmer. Unfortunately, the last week or so, whenever we have eaten the duck eggs, I have become violently ill with horrible stomach pains, vomiting, so on and so forth. My wife is now currently lying in bed, stomach cramping and visiting the bathroom multiple times after eating duck eggs a couple of hours ago. Have you all heard of or experienced an allergy to eggs with living a paleo diet, and have individual reported being more sensitive to duck eggs than chicken eggs? We love our eggs, and don’t want to have one more thing we can’t eat added to the list. Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, you’re our only hope.” {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: I’m sorry Jeff, but part of the reason I wanted to answer this question is not because you don’t feel well. Although, I sympathize. But, you actually live in the city right… the closest big city to where I live, and I want to know where you are getting duck eggs!? So, write back and let me know where I can get duck eggs near where you live.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Liz Wolfe: So, this is like one of those things where I’m like, “Doc, it hurts when I do this!” “Well, stop doing that.” Um, pull the duck eggs out and see if you feel better. And then maybe in a couple of weeks try the duck eggs again. I don’t know, maybe you got a bad batch? Maybe there was something growing on your counter?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. It could definitely be that.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: I did a little bit of just kind of Googling just to see.

Liz Wolfe: You Googled it?

Diane Sanfilippo: Just to see what are some of the differences, and interestingly enough on localharvest.org they talk about duck eggs being richer in albumin, making cakes and pastries fluffier and richer, but perhaps you could be reacting to that higher level of albumin. I don’t know.

Liz Wolfe: Which is in the white, right?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I’m pretty sure. So that’s kind of…I read that. And they don’t call it out as a problem, but it’s something that it just kind of raised a little bit of a red flag to me. Yeah, it is definitely in the white. So, that’s kind of what I’m seeing there. Definitely a richer source of nutrition for people who are curious of some of the positives. You know, they tend to be about 1.5-2 times the size of a chicken egg, so. I think that could be it, and it could just be that they are sensitive. I don’t know how they are cooking them. If they are doing them like sunny side up and any of that white is possibly not all the way cooked through, that could be an issue. Not that you really want to test this, but, you know, perhaps try hard boiling one and see what happens. And then, you know, if you want to take it another step further, you could cook it all the way, and just eat the yolk, and then step it back to just the yolk, but maybe a soft scramble, or something like that. So you just kind of keep narrowing it down to what could be wrong. I think the yolk of a duck egg is probably an extremely rich source of nutrition, but if you’re not tolerating it, and chances are it’s going to be the white that you are not tolerating, but if you are not tolerating it, definitely don’t eat it. I had an interesting conversation with… ah, shoot I forgot her first name, but she has a, Health Starts in the Kitchen is I think her Facebook and Instagram, and they brought … from Bill and Haley.

Liz Wolfe: I think Haley.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, she brought me some. Oh yeah, her name is Haley, you’re right!

Liz Wolfe: Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: Because I remember she told me it’s spelled the same way as Haley Mason.

Liz Wolfe: She helps me with homesteading stuff. She’s like, a yeah. Yeah.

Diane Sanfilippo: She’s awesome. She brought us some eggs and some dried mushrooms. And I was telling her how years ago I got really sick eating mushrooms because I ate this huge pile of morels that someone had cooked for me, and it was one of those situations where I’m like, I’m pretty sure morels are something you are not supposed to eat in large quantities, and she said yeah, you know, if you haven’t eaten mushrooms for a while, it’s good to start slowly, because you can react. But, you may not if you kind of start slowly. So, perhaps there’s a little bit of building up a tolerance, which, you know, I think it can go one way or the other, where you’re like, well, are you turning on your …. are you actually doing that in a positive sort of, you know, negative stressor becomes a positive, like exercise over time. That kind of thing. So that could be another situation where you know, did you just try and eat 4 duck eggs out of nowhere, or, you know, do you add one to the mix and kind of move on from there. That could be another approach. Anyway, thank you to Haley if she listens from Health Starts in the Kitchen for our eggs. Chicken eggs. They were amazing.

Liz Wolfe: I actually kind of stalk her a little bit on Instagram.

Diane Sanfilippo: She was really sweet. It was so nice of her to bring us all that stuff. This was like the week of amazing food gifts from fans. I got, like, 16 ounces of grass-fed tallow that was rendered by someone…

Liz Wolfe: Wow.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, from their cow share, and then that. That was pretty sweet.

Liz Wolfe: Awesome. We’ve talked before about this. Kind of like, you’re just starting paleo and then all of a sudden all you can think, and I’m not saying this is the situation with Jeff, …

Diane Sanfilippo: Right.

Liz Wolfe: …but with a lot of people, it is, where all you can think of to eat are eggs, bacon, and burgers without buns. And so you basically hammer your body with this to a point where you can develop an intolerance, really.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: From just kind of overdoing it.

Diane Sanfilippo: You can become intolerant to pretty much anything.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: You can also, I think, I don’t know if it’s the same kind of allergy, but I think you can also develop those allergies over time. I am now pretty much allergic to all tree nuts, like, almonds have joined the ranks of things that I can’t eat. It’s really pretty sad. Hazelnuts…somebody asked me the other day, well what if I soak and sprout them. And I was like {laughs} I am not that committed to try and eat almonds that, you know, it was just like a convenience thing for me, but I’ll try it. It could also be a matter of stress level. Like, I’m extremely stressed, or I have been for a while, just working on finishing up the Sugar Detox Cookbook, and so, you know, maybe that almond flour cookie that I had just was a little too much at the time.

Liz Wolfe: I think there’s a possibility that; and I have no problem with people that bake with almond flour or coconut flour or whatever, but as with anything, every single day multiple times a day…

Diane Sanfilippo: Yep.

Liz Wolfe: I think you set yourself up for problems. And I’ve started to think of nuts as….so this never ended up happening.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: But, my husband and I have a black walnut tree. And, he’s been collecting the walnuts. Like, super dedicated. And, we were going to like only eat what we could harvest out of our own backyard. Man, it takes so much effort to get one nut from this tree.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: And then they don’t even taste that good. They’re kind of bitter, you know.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: So, if you kind of, for the most part, try and think of nuts as something that is kind of precious, you know?

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm. I mean they are. People ask pretty often about what makes nuts and seeds better than grains. Aren’t they pretty much the same kind of thing? And the reality is, for the most part, they do require less work to access perhaps equal amount. So, you know, harvesting those black walnuts definitely a lot of work, but to get, you know, a handfuls worth of those versus a handful of wheat, for example, and then the fact that that handful is enough of the walnuts to eat and that handful of wheat, like you are then going to need a lot more to grind up and make flour and make that thing that we’ve been eating.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: So, there’s a little bit of a difference in terms of exactly how much of this stuff we’re eating. But, if we are doing, you know, tons of treats and we’re feeling like it doesn’t work for our bodies, it is something to be aware of. I actually know that the walnut allergy for me wasn’t something I ever had until probably about 2007. I was eating walnut butter very frequently because it was delicious.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: If anybody has ever had it, really, really tasty. Because I didn’t want to do peanut butter and I was just, I don’t know, I was trying all the different nut butters. And the walnut butter was amazing. And one day I was eating it, and I was like, I think my throat is getting itchy, this is weird. And so I shortly thereafter discovered that pecans did the same thing, and then literally just in the last couple of weeks, Danielle Walker was at my house and made me these coconut flour brownies, and she layered them to make them like a German chocolate thing, and I was like, okay, well I can’t do walnuts so how about hazelnuts, because I thought that would be okay. But I was eating a brownie and my throat was getting itchy, and it was not feeling good. I think we absolutely can drive those intolerances and how far from the question did we get? Oh, not that far.

Liz Wolfe: No.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I mean, we’re talking about eggs.

Liz Wolfe: We pretty much answered it.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s actually pretty common with eggs, too, and one of the things we can do to sort of work around a lot of these allergies or intolerances, if they are not a legitimate allergy. And mine, again, it’s not a digestive thing, although that vampire acne I was telling you about for forever, Liz, it’s pretty much been gone since I haven’t been eating nuts, so that’s definitely.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m able to finally pinpoint that. If you have vampire acne, stop eating nuts. You can also, you know, if you find that you react to eggs, don’t eat them every day.

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: You know, maybe eat them once or twice a week, spaced out by at least three or four days, you know it may not be something you need to say “I can never eat this again.” And again, pointing back to the way it’s cooked, sometimes just more well cooked can be the answer, too.

Liz Wolfe: Agreed. I treat my eggs now the same way I treat my nuts,

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Which is, I make them count. I don’t do…

Diane Sanfilippo: Delicately?

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. {laughing} I can’t. I make them count. I don’t do like 50-egg casseroles to eat every single day for breakfast.

Diane Sanfilippo: Because you used to. I know, you were on that, like, mass gain.

Liz Wolfe: I did man. I was on my mass gain. No, I was, you know, it was like, well, all you do is you scramble something, pick out the pieces of egg shell that ended up in there because you can’t crack eggs.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: And then you just heat it up. Like, what can be more fail-safe or fool proof than that? But now I really, like, I make sure that I don’t eat eggs every day, I don’t eat nuts every day. I know how to prepare; at this point, now, a “pried egg”, which is my new post on the blog, where I kind of poach-fry an egg in a mason jar ring, and it’s beautiful and it tastes good.

Diane Sanfilippo: It sounds like you did that by accident? No?

Liz Wolfe: {laughs} Kind of.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: Well I was trying to fry an egg and it just never comes out right, so I dumped some water in the pan, and it was just a very happy accident. But, that’s how I eat my eggs, and I pretty much only eat nuts when it’s a Paleo Treat.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: Because those are damn good. You cannot waste a Paleo Treat.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. I mean, good stuff.

Liz Wolfe: Yeah. Alright cool.

Diane Sanfilippo: Alright.

6. Kombucha on the Sugar Detox [40:09]

Liz Wolfe: Next… This is going to be a quick one, I think. “What is your view on Kombucha when doing the 21-Day Sugar Detox?” I feel like this one comes up every, like, it’s on a cycle.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I get this one a lot. It’s actually; I don’t know if I covered it in the FAQs in the book; I may have. I have to flip it open. You will discover…

Liz Wolfe: And that’s a lot of work. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: What?

Liz Wolfe: That’s a lot of work. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: What?

Liz Wolfe: To flip your book open.

Diane Sanfilippo: Well, it’s not sitting right next to me, and you’re going to tell me I’m making too much noise if I get up to grab it.

Liz Wolfe: That’s true.

Diane Sanfilippo: No, it’s not that much work.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: But, you will find, once your book is out, you’ll be like, “what did I write in there?”

Liz Wolfe: I’m already like that.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, I mean. You sort of black it out, and you also sort of write and say so many things in so many places, that you’re like, “did I say that actually in the book? Did I actually write that into the book? I kind of hope I did.”

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: But anyway. Kombucha, you know, typically…so it’s a fermented tea drink. It’s made by brewing very strong tea that you sweeten pretty heavily, and also introduce to it a SCOBY, a symbiotic colony of bacteria and yeast. Yes? Yes.

Liz Wolfe: Yup yup.

Diane Sanfilippo: So a lot of people are concerned that it’s too much sugar while you are on the sugar detox. So, there’s two sides to this, and you have to figure out where you fall. The one that I have is the sort of how much can you have. I either have it on the yes list or on the sometime list, because there is a limit to how much you can have. You can have about 8 ounces of it per day on the Sugar Detox, and most Kombuchas have pretty low sugar content. If you read one that is pretty high compared to some others that you are looking at, make a judgment call and don’t get that one. You know, I don’t know how accurate those counts are, but I presume that they are tested at some regular interval because that would be a requirement of the Food and Drug Administration or the USDA or whoever is regulating. That’s USDA, will be regulating the nutrition facts label on your Kombucha. Now, if you are making it at home, you don’t have a nutrition facts label, generally, you know, making sure it’s not overly sweet and you should be fine, again with that 8 ounces. Most people will do fine with that. There are some people who specifically have issues with yeast or Candida overgrowth or just really have some very strong sugar addictions that are just sort of on the edges of that bell curve. You know, most folks are not going to fall into this category, but there are some, so be aware if it’s you. If you find that your body reacts to something like Kombucha, or if it even reacts to something like sauerkraut that is fermented, any of these fermented foods, it can exacerbate a problem with a fungal or a yeast overgrowth. So, just be aware of that, that it is possible. Anytime we say, “oh this is a great food!” It can be great for one person, not great for another. So just be aware that it is a possible and just because it is allowed or included doesn’t mean it’s right for you. That being said, I had about 8 ounces of Kombucha today, and I feel pretty good drinking it, and that’s pretty much it. It is an okay thing on the Sugar Detox in that limited quantity.

Liz Wolfe: Coolness.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

7. Brain fog on paleo [43:33]

Liz Wolfe: Okay. This question is from Sarah. “I’ve been mostly paleo for about 3 months now, with okay results. My husband and I originally went on paleo, me for brain fog and chronic runny nose, and him for anxiety. Being on paleo has helped him tremendously, me not so much. My runny nose has finally gotten about 90% better after completely eliminating dairy, but I still have sores in my nose that won’t go away. I’ve tried using OTC antibiotic cream and essential oils. My brain fog has actually seemed to get worse. I can’t remember things from the day before; sometimes from hours before. Something from last week? Forget about it. Half the time when I try to talk about something, words don’t come to me because my brain fog is so bad. We eat a lot of fats, mostly from grass-fed beef and pork, consume coconut oil every day, eat dried fruit and nuts for snacks. We do still eat quinoa cereal every morning, use rice noodles, and eat brown rice occasionally. I was really hoping going paleo would help my brain fog, but so far it has only made it worse. I would love to hear any suggestions on how to fix this. I will do anything. It’s becoming unbearable and affecting my work and confidence. Please help.” I do want to point out, I’m never one to say, “well you didn’t paleo hard enough.” Because I don’t think that’s what’s going on here. I’m the first to admit that I really don’t think brown rice, quinoa now and then, I just don’t think those things are going to really cause problems for the average person. I have some jasmine rice in my countertop in my cabinet, and I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal. That said, if there is a rampant grain intolerance at work here, it’s one of those things where you can’t really know until you try to eliminate those completely. That said, that’s not what I really wanted to say. What I really wanted to say, was my mind went immediately to impaired liver detox. And I can throw out some ideas about that, but in this case, I absolutely think it would be helpful to seek a practitioner that is well versed in detox who understands exactly how the liver packages and inactivates and exports toxins from the body. I think this is something that was going on long before the change in food. It could very well be as a result of some kind of gut dysbiosis, as well, which kind of goes hand in hand with impaired liver detox because you have, basically toxins building up in your body as, I’ll say, off-gas, from bacteria that has colonized that is not appropriate. So, anyway. Before I throw out any more thoughts, please, as we say at the beginning of the podcast, know that this is not direct prescriptive advice. These are just ideas. Because I do think this is something that Sarah should go get taken care of as soon as possible, because it’s no joke. Brain fog is no joke. Especially the kind that is crippling your ability to move within your life. So, I think it will be really important to get a personalized plan crafted for her specifically. It doesn’t have to be a traditional medicine doc; a Chinese medicine practitioner might be the way to go maybe, or at the very least a doctor or a naturopath who knows how the liver works and how it interacts with whatever is going on with your gut bacteria. Surprisingly, many conventional medical practitioners don’t have a clue about that. But, do be weary though of practitioners who want to sell you like a detox formula, like a detox shake, or something like that. That is not the kind of detoxification we’re talking about. We’re talking liver support, which is… I mean, we’re talking about the scientific definition of detoxification.

Diane Sanfilippo: Sometimes, those do sort of come, those supplements do come in shake form because there might be a lot of sort of powders or pills if you were otherwise going to take them, so I know some people will kind of offer up a shake. We’re not talking about, like, a juice cleanse detox.

Liz Wolfe: Right.

Diane Sanfilippo: Or even a Sugar Detox for that matter. This is like, if you are getting some kind of powder, it’s because it’s got all of these things in it that they want you to take, and that might be the easiest delivery mechanism, and if you are not digesting well, a liquid form is actually sometimes easier than something that your body has to break down that pill casing on.

Liz Wolfe: Look at the ingredients of any kind of detox formula.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: Because there are, like, homeopathic, there are Chinese medicine type detox formulas that are herbs meant for this very purpose, for liver support. But there are some, like you said Diane, that are like, you know, weight loss detox program shakes, and some practitioners do get those confused. So if you look at the ingredients, and you see like, rice protein, or something like that that clearly puts it in that category of, this is not true liver support here. You should be able to tell once you look at the ingredients label. But there are other ways to support your liver as well. I really like milk thistle. A few specific B vitamins are also really important. Sulfur-rich foods, as well, like onions, garlic, egg yolks. Making sure selenium is adequate without necessarily supplementing with selenium. I think it’s best to get selenium from whole foods, especially foods rich in vitamin E. Sometimes, a good B vitamin with methylated folate helps. Metabolic maintenance has a phosphorylated B-complex vitamin and I’m probably getting too detailed here, but that one might be good I think, but it is prohibitively expensive for a non-practitioner, so another benefit of working with a practitioner is sometimes they stock them for a little bit less than you would buy retail. But I was going to say, I think Chris Kresser’s Paleologix line has a few supplements dedicated to liver detox, so that might be worth checking out or mentioning to your practitioner.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think it’s also something, you know, really hoping going paleo was going to help my brain fog, but so far it has only made it worse, is sometimes those things happen and it could be just a matter of you are tuned in more to it, or it’s just coincidence. I mean, I’m not trying to…I’m always really sensitive to the fact that, like, this could be any way of eating, and to just be dismissive of something getting worse as a result might be a mistake, you know? Like, somebody who goes on a vegan diet, and then says all of a sudden they have no energy, and you know, the vegan podcast interview question person is like, well, you’re just not getting enough of, you know, who knows whatever it is. {laughs} I just, I am always really…

Liz Wolfe: You’re not veganing hard enough!

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m not, yeah, I’m just always really sensitive to the fact that we do always have that, sort of, we’re going to defend is kind of the right way to eat. I do think that when it comes to brain fog, I don’t know what she was eating before. As you had said, perhaps if she has a really strong grain intolerance. I know this is something that, like, Dave Asprey, the Bulletproof Executive, talks about a lot, and that is mycotoxins, and fungus and molds. And one of the many reasons that I would put on a list of sort of why not to eat grains and legumes and all of those foods, you know, outside of many of the others that we’ve talked about pretty often, it’s just that they are not a fresh, whole food. So you have no idea how long any of that stuff has been sitting somewhere before it gets to you to eat. And granted, a lot of us have produce that is shipped across the country, but there is definitely a time limit to that. There’s really not a time limit to how long that quinoa can sit somewhere, and you also have no idea how much mold or mycotoxin fungus, that kind of stuff, can build up in a bin like that, wherever that quinoa is being stored. I’m not even just talking about the shop where you get it from. If you buy it in bulk, for example, if it’s being stored somewhere after harvest before it goes to manufacturer to package it, so, just being aware that that is a possibility. And again, I hate getting into that minutia sometimes, but it really could be something that specific because I know that was something that Dave has talked about a bunch in terms of brain fog very specifically being linked to something like mycotoxin or mold or some kind of fungal overgrowth on the food that we’re eating. So I think it’s, you know, that’s one of those cases where it’s like, we don’t want to be militant and say you’re not doing paleo hard enough or hardcore enough, but at the same time, there are so many reasons why we avoid those foods, and those are some that we may not be talking about and it can lead to exactly what she’s talking about suffering with. So, perhaps being really strict about it, and then, you know, not doing the mostly, you know, what if being really strict for a month actually did lift that brain fog a bit? I mean, that’s where I always stand. Like, I get it. I’m not militant either. I’ve had several pints of Jennie’s ice cream in the last several months. {laughs} I’m not militant. But I know how that food affects me, and so I think it’s important to just get a clean start, and then see how those foods affect you thereafter.

8. Proper diet for chickens [53:03]

Liz Wolfe: Okie-doke. Um, so this will be the last question.

Diane Sanfilippo: Okay.

Liz Wolfe: Okay. This one is from Natasha. “I’ve been listening to your podcast from most recent to oldest, which is very entertaining, because it’s like an audio time machine into the past, before your books were written. This week I listened to episode 21, food quality with Karen Pendergrass. We’ve been eating” Go Chiefs! Karen’s a fellow Kansas Citian. Alright.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: “We’ve been eating pastured pork and grass-fed beef, but I hadn’t done much research into the feed of the chickens I’d been purchasing, and I immediately started doing my research. We’d been buying organic free-range chicken from Trader Joe’s, which I knew wasn’t the best option, but I looked at the packaging and saw that their feed consists of corn and soy. I can’t seem to find an ideal option, even among pastured poultry. I can’t find a local farmer who doesn’t use corn or soy in their feed. I even looked at US Wellness, and found their poultry feed contains corn and soy, though they are fazing out the soy. Paleo Approved, Karen’s website, would probably be amazingly helpful, but it is down right now. All of this made me wonder, first of all, what should chickens be eating anyway? And secondly, where do I find these magical chickens which are raised on their natural diets?”

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Liz Wolfe: “All of these sources tout that they…”

Diane Sanfilippo: Unicorn chickens!!

Liz Wolfe: {laughing} “All of these sources tout that their corn and soy are non-GMO, but that doesn’t change the fact that the foods are crappy, and chickens shouldn’t be eating them. I wish I could raise my own chickens, but it’s not an option right now, thanks to urban apartment living. Also, I feel like I’d be overstepping my bounds to tell hardworking local farmers that they are feeding their chickens the wrong way. Help!” So, I feel kind of passionate about this now that I have chickens. Not that I know everything, but I know some things, and what I know is probably not going to make everybody very happy, but I believe that corn, non-GMO corn, as part of a larger feed blend is perfectly appropriate for chickens. {GASP} Oh my god, I can’t believe she said that.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s it! You’re going to Paleo jail.

Liz Wolfe: I know. I’m done. I love Karen’s work. And she’s right, we can feed animals a completely biologically appropriate diet, which for chickens, would be bugs and greenery all year round. My chickens eat grass and bugs and they strip the seeds off of some of the little weeds that grow real low in the back pasture, and they will eat all of that. So chickens are omnivores. So they don’t only eat corn or grain, but they do eat those things. So, if we were able to, and we are working on this, if we were able to get some kind of vermiculture going by the winter, using like black soldier flies or something like that, we might be able to feed our chickens an exclusive diet of just bugs. But everywhere in the United States, with climate variations and those types of things, it is just not possible to do the perfect thing that a chicken would do in the tropics, which I believe is where chickens actually kind of evolved from. We can’t feed them absolutely “perfectly.” And, you know, pastoralism is kind of that middle ground between agriculturalism and hunter-gatherer paleo thing, and Diane and I, from Radiance Nutritional Therapy, were having a conversation about this. Because these are the types of conversations I have in my life right now. About how farming appropriately and conscientiously and as localized as you can is actually, I’m not going to say better than hunting and gathering, but it’s extremely non-stressful for the animals, it’s a fabulous way to support your local economy, and it’s perfectly appropriate even if “corn is not paleo.” So, in my opinion, chickens, wherever they are, would be allowed to free range all day long, which mine are. They are all over the entire property all day long. We put the food up so they can’t get to it during the day, and then at night we bring the food down so they can have a little bit and they have an incentive to come back to the coop. Who knows; maybe we’re doing it wrong. I don’t know, and I don’t care because it’s working for us. But, our feed is, we get it from Austin’s Best Poultry, I think it’s like H and H feed, or something like that. It’s organic, non-GMO, no soy. There is some corn in there, but there is a ton of other stuff in there, too. And it’s working just fine. We give them meal worms, dried meal worms sometimes. We’ve looked into raising and drying meal worms ourselves, but at this point it is ridiculously just out of the scope of reality. So, there are ways to feed chickens their biologically appropriate diet. But, that diet also, I think it’s perfectly appropriate to include some grains, and some scratch. Eventually, we’ll try and grow and grind our own food, but if you’ve got somebody that’s doing it for you, that’s cool, in my opinion.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think the bigger issue is probably too that soy, especially the GMO soy, but the soy being something that we’re most often more concerned with, I think, and then if it’s corn, that it’s non-GMO just because we don’t know what the possibilities are. I had the same kind of conversation with the farmer, I think I mentioned it on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, when we picked up the half pig share, and you know kind of saw how the pigs were raised. I mean, I’ve never seen pigs run so fast in my life.

Liz Wolfe: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: They have a great life, and they are running from a food trough to where their water is, and they are kind of like herding together, and just being pigs. I mean, it was really interesting to just kind of see them out there, and then, you know, I did have to kind of ask the question about what is in the feed and what’s the story with the feed, and you know, the farmer kind of was a little bit unapologetic in saying, you know, it’s just regular feed. She’s like, it’s not organic at this point, and it is what it is. I didn’t try to beat her up about it, because again, realizing that for some animals the ways that they are raised and you know certain things just not being in there is really important. We know cows really should be eating grass 100% of the time. Pigs are omnivorous; they can really handle a lot more. You know, chickens are more omnivorous, as well. So it’s not to say that what we’re finding is perfect ideal, but the damage that might be done may not be quite the same as it is when we look at, like, a grazing ruminant, that kind of animal, who really is not cut out to be eating something else. I mean, interestingly enough, cats are carnivores too, and people feeding cats anything other than a carnivorous diet, it’s no wonder they are getting sick, so it really just keeping in line with that a bit more is kind of the critical edge. And really, the way the chickens are raised, the way the animals are raised and their treatment I think is a really important factor.

Liz Wolfe: I think it’s much more important that animals are allowed to engage in their natural behaviors and they have that option because, yeah I think it would be a problem. Even if I was feeding my chickens organic non-GMO soy-free feed all day long, but kept them in the tiny coop and never let them out.

Diane Sanfilippo: Right. And that’s what’s happening

Liz Wolfe: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: When people are buying just “organic” eggs. I would rather eat a non-organic, egg from a legit raised chicken than an organic, you know, that’s my choice. There may be some people who are really sensitive to some things, you know, physiologically that are in the chicken eggs that were from non-organic chickens, but I think I would rather go for, you know, this one is raised the way it should be raised. Plus, you don’t know, there are definitely some farmers out there who are selling eggs that may not be certified organic, but they may be organic. You just don’t know for sure because the certification is a whole other ball of wax. Anyway.

Liz Wolfe: Yes it is. Also keep in mind animal foods have seasons, too. So a lot of grass-fed food that you get from, you know, places that have a winter?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: You know, they’re fed forage, they are fed dried …

Diane Sanfilippo: Hay.

Liz Wolfe: Grass, and hay, and whatnot. But some places that say that their animals are grazed year-round, they are in a part of the country, or they are shipped during that season to a part of the country where there is grass.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Liz Wolfe: So, that’s stressful, you know, shipping the cows down so they can be on grass the whole time. There are just so many different things that work, and I think it is awesome that people are thinking about this stuff that Natasha is asking about it because there is a lot more at work than just, well is there soy in there?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Liz Wolfe: So, cool. Well, we’re right at an hour, so we’ll shut it down. If you are enjoying the podcast, help us spread the word by leaving a review in iTunes. It helps keep the show in front of lots of folks searching for some paleo chat. Plus, we like to read about the weird stuff you do while listening to the show, Like we said last week.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh!

Liz Wolfe: I’ve gotten some funny feedback on that.

Diane Sanfilippo: Somebody gave me one! They said that they are working in a chemistry lab, or something, and I was like, oh I have to tell Liz! She’ll like that.

Liz Wolfe: Oh, it’s so funny.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that was what she was doing. Okay.

Liz Wolfe: Um, okay. So until next week, you can find Diane at http://blog.balancedbites.com/. You can find me, Liz, at http://cavegirleats.com/. Thanks for listening! We will be back next week.

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Cheers!
Diane & Liz